This is Kristin Hiemstra with We The People Rise. Thank you for joining us. Today, we are very privileged to have with us Jodi Bondy Norgaard, and she is the author of More Than a Doll. But she is more than just an author. She is also a cultural disruptor, and she is talking to us today about what it is like to disrupt the cultural norms that we see out in the world and how important that is and how we really need to be cognizant of them.
In addition, she's gonna be sharing with us some concrete techniques that we can use to bring forth change within our communities. Welcome, Jodi.
Oh. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here today, Kristen.
So excited to have you. So tell, let's just, uh, just give us a, you know, kinda the thumbnail background of what drove you to write this book and to have this inspiration.
Um, gosh, it happened about, uh, in 2008, uh, when I had this inspiration. And, and, and just to give you even a little bit more of a
Yep.
... I, always had this like these, you know, gender issues and these gender stereotypes were always on my radar. But I didn't know what I could do personally to change things, so I just pushed it aside like so many of us do, right, about different things in life, like, "Ah, that's weird." You know, you push it aside.
"I don't know how to change things." Until I had this moment with my daughter who was nine years old at the time, and her name is Grace, and she and I, she had just gotten done playing soccer, and so she's dressed in her soccer uniform, right, like her shin guards are on, her
Yep.
her hair is in like crazy, messy pigtails.
Yep.
And I tell you this because she looks like a normal kid on a Saturday afternoon.
Yes, she does.
frantically running into the toy store because she needs a wrapped birthday gift for a party she's attending in 30 minutes, so it's one of those panicky parent moments that we've all experienced. So she's running behind me when a line of dolls just stopped me in my tracks. They had on short skirts, crop top, belly button ring, big hair, lots of makeup.
I look at my cute little girl, I look at these dolls, and I picked up one of the dolls, and I, I bought it because I was out of my mind.
Right.
And, and, right, like and, and, uh, so this is the doll and her name is Lovely Lola. And I thought there's not one parent out there that wants their daughter to look, act, or be called Lovely Lola.
I'm sorry. That's just,
it's just awful.
...
I mean
it is totally awful.
It is just awful. So I, I, you know, I obviously I bought the doll, but I, I'm picking up the other dolls in the line and there was Dazzle and Destiny and Sizzle and Sue and Cute Candy. I literally had a meltdown in the toy store. And I, you know, I, and I bought the doll, and I'm telling the, you know, the sales kid, I'm like, "Hey, listen.
We should not be marketing this sex to girls." And he's like, "You know, look, lady, I'm 16." I'm like, "I don't know."
Right.
So I brought it home to my husband and I said, "Listen, I am sick and tired of these negative images that are marketed to girls and I think I can do something about it, and I think I can create a positive image product for girls that encourages them to be healthy physically, mentally, and emotionally through sports and physical activity."
So you're bringing and I think this lends itself to a larger conversation which is if you turn on Netflix or if you turn on Prime or whatever you're watching, for me anyway, one thing that I've been very interested to see is how women are also relegated in roles. I was very, um, The Handmaiden's Tale, for instance, I know it was very popular, I know it was well-received, but for me I was like, "We don't actually need that on television.
We don't need that." It did happen. You know, Margret, uh, the author of
Right.
... documentation that she only writes fiction about things that have actually happened. She turns them into a story. So we do know that, you know, she took and sewed pieces like that together. But I was like, "This is shouting out a narrative and we're heading, it's creating a pathway to a direction we really don't want to go." And I look at even the Marvel movies which I enjoy just like everybody else.
It's like there has to be this big cataclysmic fight that has to happen. No one is painting like this amazing future where everybody's getting along and things are great, like we're not seeing stories like that. And I'm just curious in, in you, you know, when you're talking to people about the future, what kind of language are you using?
Oh. Yeah. Well, you know, representation, you know,
Right.
you know in, in, in so what I, I am saying it, it starts at the beginning, so
It does.
you know, look at the root of the problem because gender stereotyping doesn't begin in our teens or our 20s, it begins the
Right.
child can hold a toy, a book, or watch a screen.
Yep.
So I feel like we're always saying, you know, like, um, you know, how women should, you know, change to fit in, how we should, you know, buck up, how we should just accept what's out there and just move along, right? Well, I, I say BS, right, that no. But these gender stereotypes really set in by the age of five which is sad, and that's when little girls start believing that their gender can't do as much as the male gender.
So when you're looking at television programs or books and I, and I write about this in my, in, in my book and I don't know the statistics right off the top of my head, but it's Goodnight Rebel Girl, there are two authors who did a study of 5,000 books and basically, children's books, and basically it came back with, you know, women had or, you know, female characters had 20% speaking...
And, you know, and there, and there were other, you know, statistics in there how, you know, women didn't work outside the home, um, you know, they were the caretakers and, and things like that. So there are little subtle ways that children pick this up.So, what these messages say is that, you know, boys are the lead characters and girls are in supporting roles, they're on the sidelines.
Yeah, 100%. And it goes, uh, I mean, it goes even deeper, right? 'Cause you have history, which is his story.
Mm-hmm.
Right? You know, the, the default pronoun is he, him, all that kind of stuff. It'd be very interesting if God were a female. It'd be very interesting if the default pronoun was a female. We would have a very different perception. Our ears would be used to it, our concept.
The way we thought about things would be completely different if, you know, that was, if we were to change the the
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
of what society is. Because we're all raised with that and we have been for a very long time, and we just accept it. We don't even realize that it's something to be challenged.
Mm-hmm. It's so deeply rooted in our culture.
It's so deeply rooted. And so, uh, and you, you're like, "Hey, not working for me. I'm going to change this." Talk about that.
Uh, yeah. It took two years from rough draft to the actual debut of the first doll, which was Tennis Girl Gracie, and I launched that at the US Open.
Okay. Was your daughter's name Grace? Gracie?
Yes, yes, yes. It was so great. She and one of her friends helped me name the dolls and they helped me design the doll, you
That's fantastic.
... the dolls. It was just so much fun. And, uh, so yes. Tennis was her favorite sport, so she decided, you know, that one had to be Gracie. So, um, I just by chance picked up the phone one day and called the United States Tennis Association. I got to the right person and in five minutes they, they said, "I love what you're doing.
We'll take 500." And those 500 sold out in six days at the
Did your heart drop, though? I mean, when you, like, called and they were like, "Okay, we'll take 500," were you like, "Oh, oh, oh."
Whoa." I know, and I'm like, "I'm onto something."
Yes.
"I am seriously onto something."
Yeah.
And so my next goal was to launch a line of nine dolls at, uh, the New York Toy Fair, at the Javits Center.
Mm-hmm.
And that was in February of 2009. And everybody comes from all over the world to see the next best thing and I'm like, "Oh, it's me." I'm, like, borderline cocky, if not cocky. I'm like, "I just sold 500 the US Open."
you being kid, yes. Absolutely.
Everyone's gonna think it's me. Well, not so much. I had so many buyers come to my booth and say, "Oh my gosh, I love your product. My daughter plays soccer. She would love Soccer Girl." And I'd say, "Great. How many would you like to buy?" And I'd always get the hand, "Oh, no, no, no.
We're not gonna buy it 'cause it'll never sell." And I'd say, "Why?" And they said, "Well ultimately, girls like fashion. Can you create a fashion doll?" like, "That's my point."
Right.
"As a mother of a daughter and as a woman, I'm positive girls like more than fashion."
Right.
I have nothing against fashion.
Yeah.
I think fashion is... In fact, I really like my jacket. It's, like, of my favorites. And I just feel like I, it's an expression of who I am, it doesn't define me.
No.
So if there are 75 lines of fashion dolls out there, great. Keep the f-fashion dolls. Let's give girls the choice. And so, eh, I hung in there for five long years and I'm telling you, it was so antiquated and it still is. But we do have to hold the toy industry, the media industry, the publishing industry at a higher standard for our children because it's, it does...
Bottom line is the
Right.
... all these companies. And, but they have, you know, our children's interests in hand and they need to give our, our children, you know, better products.
One of the things that, uh, I think is interesting is the stories that allow... So dolls are, just from a psychological perspective, a doll allows an individual to project onto it.
Mm-hmm.
So that's what you see, you know. It's, it's kind of a Rorschach, if you will. It's like, I don't know if you played with Barbies but like, you know, Barbie was having my adventures. She was living my adventures for me. And so when you have a, a doll that's living the adventures for them, it allows for a different type of expansion mentally.
Mm-hmm.
And I just find it fascinating we're not pushing out toys that allow for that, if you will. If you think of us, you know, having container, the more versions of ourselves we can see outside of that container, the more expansive we are.
Right.
And I'm gonna tie this to some of the other work that you've done, uh, which is DEI work.
Mm-hmm.
Diversity, equity and inclusion and you mentioned a quote in one of the things that I was listening to when I was doing research, uh, the Warren Buffett quote of, you
Mm-hmm.
"It's amazing how well the country has done when we've only engaged, like, half the employment force." And I would say not even half. We haven't engaged women, we've engaged men, but I would say we've engaged white men more than we've engaged Black men, Hispanic men. You know, not to mention all the different categories of women.
He said, "Look at what our country has done using half its talent and imagine what we could accomplish if we, if we pulled women off the sidelines."
You could wake uh, wave a magic wand, wake up tomorrow and your wish had been granted. How would you know? If you looked around the world, how would you know that your wish had been granted around this space?
Oh, gosh. I, I strongly believe that the table should reflect the society it represents.
Yep.
So it would be just, you know, equality and, uh, you know, having women in positions of power and leadership. And it's just so much difficult, more difficult for us. And I've talked to men about this, about how, you know, they, they agree, like, that, that the yellow brick road is right there for them.
They just need to find the path to it. I'm like, some people don't even know that yellow brick road exists.
Right.
Other people have to climb mountains and swim oceans to get to it.
Yeah.
Is that, for you to see it out your front
Right.
it's such a, a privilege.
Yeah.
So, you know, I, I, if I, if I were to wave that magic wand, I, I would just say, you know, all, you know, much more equality across the board. And I also believe that if women had, you know, all over the world, had say over their reproductive
Mm-hmm.
... we would see less poverty.
Yeah.
And, you know, we, we, we don't see that. we're, we're seeing those rollbacks uh, you know, as we speak, which is, is insane. It's crazy. Uh, so that's why we need to keep, um, you know, sharing our stories and like you, um, allowing people like me to have a voice and others to hear my voice because it is, it is necessary that we keep speaking up about these things because it's, it's, it's wrong.
It's, uh, it sets women back, not just here but in other countries.
Yeah. you bring up such a good point because other countries' women are watching women in the US. I mean, we are considered one of ... the most progressive countries in terms of women's rights, and it's just been shot to hell these past few years.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, talk to me about when you were working at the White House or when you were working with the White House folks. What, uh... I'm gonna ask you a two-part question. One, talk about that, and two, talk about what citizens can do, what people can do. And I don't mean just men or women, just people in general who want to have a more empowered approach to the governance that's happening to them.
Uh, working with the, uh, the... First, I was invited to meetings, uh, breaking down gender stereotypes in media and toys, conferences, uh, at, uh, under the Obama administration. And then when Biden got into office, he had immediately formed the Gender Policy Council. And so the head of it was Jen Klein.
So I immediately reached out to her. Again, I did not know her, like the US Open, right, at USTA. I, but I just had, found her email, said, "I'd love to work with you when it comes to policy and issues relating to children's toys and media and publishing." She's like, "You're it." So I worked with them for four years, hosted a meeting at the White House.
It, they were amazing people. And I'm telling you, what they did for women, not just in the US but throughout the world, was incredible. And now we do not have... that department was like, whoop, you know, thrown into the garbage.
Oh, yeah. It would have been doged.
Yeah, yeah. Right, exactly. That was, like, easy for them. They
Right.
... checked off it.
Ooh, definitely not that.
Yeah, right. Right, exactly. So I loved working with them. They're wonderful people. They did great work.
How do everyday citizens get involved, get empowered? Like, how do they move forward? And I'm just gonna just stop you before you answer. I know I asked you a question, but one of the things that you are doing consistently is you are picking up the phone and calling people.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and, and this isn't... Anyway, keep going. But I do wanna say, that seems to be a narrative that is going on and on in what you're talking about.
Uh, yeah. It's, it's hard. I think we've gotten away from connecting with people like that, so it
Oh, totally. It's so easy to text. It's like, my kids don't wanna talk. Oh, God, like, talk on the phone, please. Like, that's the scariest thing that's ever happened to them.
exactly, exactly. You know, I always get the, "What's up, Mom?" I'm like, "Can't we just say, 'Hey Mom, how are you?'"
so glad you called me, Mom." "I've been thinking about you."
Yeah, exactly. I know. "What's up, Mom?" Uh, you know, how people can get involved. It's, it's been very interesting. I, I, I was at a speaking event right when Trump got in office. I, I was sitting at this table of women, and they're looking at me. They're like, what do we do?"
Yeah.
And I'm like, "What do we do?" Oh God, that's a great question. You know, it's so... Like, we need to... One thing we can't do is stay silent.
Right.
We need to get involved in politics. Uh, we need to donate. I mean, it, it can be as much as donating, uh, writing postcards, you know, uh, following women on social media. Did you see that there was this organic experiment on LinkedIn where a couple women changed their entire profile to male?
No, how fascinating.
Their engagement jumped up like 500%. The algorithms are favoring men. We need to, we really need to... We cannot stay silent. I do say to a lot of people when I'm in, at speaking events, "I get exhausted." The whole month of June, I thought, how, how am I gonna continue moving on?" And I realized, it's okay to rest.
Because
Yeah.
... it's
Yes, Jodi.
But
It's okay to rest.
But we cannot give up.
You're like Atlas. You've got the whole world on your back.
Like, I'm really tired.
I'm sure you did.
And, but it's okay. It's okay to be tired. It's okay to rest. But we cannot give up. And we need to use our voices. We have a lot to lose if we decide to be quiet. I've had a really big issue lately with the name-calling, um...
Oh, God.
... of, of Trump. I've actually
Piggy? That was a loved one.
... yeah, Quiet Piggy. Uh, I've been writing about it, um, and I wrote about it for Ms. Magazine, which they are great to give me a voice as well. Um, but I, it's... What, what happens is that if there, there's this connection, right? So the kids see toys that boys and girls, because it affects them both, right?
So let's say, you know, a Barbie doll. We'll just take that as an example. Girls say, "Okay, appearances are..." You know, that, that is what, you know, what talks, what walks. You know, but what happens with little boys too is that they see that this is what are supposed to do.
They're supposed to just look pretty and stand on the, on the sidelines. Now when they're seeing these, our leaders in our country ... to women this way. So this is like this double whammy. Like, what kind
Absolutely.
world do we want to live in? What kind of world do we wanna leave for our children? Right? So we... It's so important for you to talk to your kids about this. I've also talked to other women. So here we are a year into, um, almost a year into his presidency.
I have seen there are a lot of women who have been organizing groups within their own communities and deciding what they can do. You know, maybe it's a book group and they're all reading books about women by women. I met with a woman who is a photographer, and she decided to take photographs at no charge of women doing great things in her
Oh, fantastic.
... and putting, putting them throughout her studio, right, and highlighting them. Other women have joined in together to bring in female
Yeah.
to talk, you know, to help women. So there I am seeing this incredible power that women are, they're using to help other women and keep them on a path that, you know, that we have been on. We are so far off from gender equality throughout our world. It's like a hundred and, you know, 50 years.
And we're going backwards. With this we've gone backwards. So we just, we just can't give up, and we need to talk to one another and support one another and amplify our voices. Uh, it's just, it's just hard. We've never been here before.
We haven't, and I really do feel like you're like, the weight of the world is on your shoulders.
Oh, thanks for saying that. I wanna give you a hug.
But I want you to be happy also. I want you... I mean, uh, so I will tell you, I was a school counselor for nearly 20 years, and first of all, we're seeing a total shift in education. And by that I mean women are outperforming men academically. It's not even close.
UNC, which is the flagship school for my state, is predominantly women. But North Carolina State, which is our STEM version, predominantly men. But with the stripping of some of the DEI stuff, 'cause I do a lot with, I've done a with the college community, we're now seeing a lot of the, the Ivies and the little Ivies and all that, they're more women.
And so that's gonna be interesting to see, 'cause that's going to shift dynamics in an interesting way, uh, in terms of when you look at the people in power, very few of 'em look like the people who are excelling in academic markets.
Mm-hmm.
So that's gonna be a change that, that's gonna be fun to kind of see play out. Because, and I'll just talk about women in general, when they've hit all these successful benchmarks and then they're told, "Oh, by the way, you're not as important. We're not gonna pay you as much money," and they've worked just as hard if not harder and all this kinda stuff, the generation, the Gen Z, Millennials, but more Gen Z, they're not raised in the same way that you and I, I think, are Gen X.
Um, kind of the way where you just kinda put up with it, you trudge through, you know, you got the resilience. But there's expectations that these kids have which are really changing the dynamics in the workplace, and a lot of employers are really struggling with them because, you know, for a lot of reasons.
But one of those expectations is, "Oh, you better be paying me as much as, you know, you're paying, and I do deserve at the table." So I'm hopeful that in the next 20, 30 years we're gonna see that. And the, the other thing I would like to bring up, and this is just as a general comment, we'll say one thing that I think Donald Trump has been amazing at, is he has shown us that nothing is sacred.
Like you can tear down every institution and while we're watching it and clutching our pearls and biting our nails and going, "What are you doing?" On the other hand, it's like, "Huh, if you can do that, so can I."
Mm-hmm.
If you, if you can do that, so can I, and so can they. There's one technique that I did wanna bring up, which I think is super important before we close, and that is you say numerous times, "Keep pointing stuff out."
Mm-hmm.
And I think that is so important, 'cause that is, just in the
Mm-hmm.
we don't see it anymore, right? We're blind to stuff we see all the time, and somebody else is seeing things differently from a different perspective.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, can you give us an example of pointing something out?
Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I, I tend to, you know, point out things all the time, call it out. I mean, I just feel like I don't even care anymore because I'm just, I'm just doing it. Um, you know, especially when it, you know, it comes to women and minorities and, you know, and, and how it is, uh, you know, pushing us down and, and, and recognizing that.
You know, a lot of times if it doesn't affect a person, right, they don't think it's worth worrying about or doing something about. So this is something that we, you know, it's not just all about you. Have you heard of the word sonder? It's one of my favorite words.
No. Tell me about it.
It, it's a newer word, and, and I, and I just wish more people could sonder. So sonder means that if you and I are able to sonder, and we recognize that everybody in the universe has a complex, interesting life, right?
Mm-hmm.
And that they just can give so much and receive so much. People who are unable to sonder, and I think this just unfortunately a world we've created, feel that everybody, the world revolves around them, and they are the center of the universe. And they don't think that everybody else has as complex or interesting life as them.
So I feel that people need to be able to sonder more and recognize that the people in the coffee shop have just as interesting and complex life as you do. So yeah, so um, that is, that has been my new favorite word. And actually it's a newer word in our dictionary, so...
Yeah, I haven't heard that. I did know that ragebaiting got added to the dictionary, which I was very glad to see.
Oh, interesting. Okay.
Well, it's so important for people to realize that half of the people, you know, weighing in on a social media post are rage baiters and
Mm-hmm.
... you know, or they're bots. It's
Mm-hmm.
how many bots are out there, you know, trying to create chaos.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a whole different conversation, but
I know, know. If you ever do, if you ever interview someone on that, let me know. Um, I,
I will. Well, and I'll say this before we wrap up. Uh, George Washington actually called it in his farewell address that if you're gonna destroy the United States, you're gonna do it from within. You're not gonna attack the US because it's too far away, there's like all these different things.
But if you destroy it from within, it makes it easier to break apart. And I do think that, you know, a lot of these rage-baiting comments are coming out of Russia, they're coming out of, you know, countries, China, countries that do not wish good things for the
Mm-hmm.
... and they have found that, uh, it gets people in arguments and, and we're seeing it. Unity has been one of the strengths of the US, and it is something that they are very intent and, um, intentional about destroying. So Dodie, if people wanna get in touch with you, they wanna get your book, More Than A Doll, highly recommend that, how do, how do they reach out?
Oh, they can email me. They can, um, LinkedIn, subscribe to my Substack. I write on that often, you know, any social media. I would, I would appreciate the following, uh, and so would my publisher, but always need more. Uh, and uh, yeah. So and, and my book is everywhere, you know.
It's on, you know, uh, Bookshop, I always like to recommend that first. Um, and then, you know, Barnes & Noble and of course, um, Amazon. Um, and yeah, read the book. I've gotten great reviews and, you know, I'm hopeful to be writing a second book shortly in 2026. That would be my goal.
That's just me. I don't know.
Well, good luck to you.
