because the only way to
hi
this is Kristen Hiemstra with we the People rise and our podcast today
you are gonna learn so much about conflict management
both internal and external
you're gonna leave with a bunch of tools
that you can use in your everyday life
because I have the best guest on
his name is Shai Tamari and shai
why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself
and why this is your life path and your area of expertise
wow that's a that's a might be a very long answer
it is you know
I loaded it right front loaded
there you go
so born and raised in Israel
then Australia back in England and then North Carolina
hence the strange accent that's coming out of my mouth
I was involved for quite some time with
issues to do with the Middle East
being from the region
I worked on Capital Hill
I taught on the Middle East
and it came to a point where it became
emotionally too heavy for me to continue
and my students would end the courses feeling really
hopeless because they understood the situation too well and I'm
I was like why am I teaching this
this is not giving me any satisfaction
and I think I was kind of drowning in in the hopelessness of it
and so I pivoted to interpersonal conflict management
trying to understand how other people interact with one another
but mostly how I interact or interacted with people
I was very good at creating conflict
and being part of conflict growing up
and I wanted to be in a position where I could provide
a space for people to figure out who they are
and how to proceed in a
an environment in which they could be true to themselves
and also allow other people to be true to themselves
and not only accept one another
but accept ourselves
and by doing that
my feeling is that
it creates an environment where there is less conflict
and so for the past roughly 10 years
I have been teaching
negotiation mediation skills
and then moved to
a more interpersonal and internal conflict management
so I when I first started teaching
I used to focus on external conflict management
so how do we deal with another person who's having a conflict with
with somebody else
and I love
and my students would get into these real arguments
and I remember thinking what is wrong with you
don't you know this is all fake
why are you ruining my class
not realizing that they were bringing all this baggage
and all these unhealed wounds into the classroom
it took me a few years for this to click
yeah
and after a few years of this happening
I realized oh
I need to be focusing on that
and I realized that I was in a place that
I was not content with myself and I couldn't really understand
what was going on with me
and I joined a men's group about five and a 1/2 years ago
we meet once a week online
and it's a place where we basically delve into our own crap
and our own wounds
we are all professional facilitators
and we use the space to work on our own issues
and starting with that group
it was the first time that I saw men being vulnerable
and men expressing themselves in an emotional way
in a way that it was actually productive and healthy
unlike
and that shifted
not only how I view myself and how I treat people around me
but also how I actually teach and facilitate classes and workshops
and so I basically pivoted
because
I did not have an impact on regions that were of interest to me
because I was physically not there
I can have an impact on my own community
and my own community these days
apart from my family are the students I teach at UNC and Duke
the courses that I teach in prisons across North Carolina
and the individuals and groups I interact with through my consultancy
where I provide training and coaching and
and other facilitation services
and it's the first time where I feel that I'm living my purpose
and for the majority of my life I did not have that
so I'm not sure if that answers the question no
well it brings up another
to me one of the most fascinating things
so as a background
I have a background in counseling
a background in anthropology
and then I have coaching
but it seems to me that this gap that you were feeling was
cause you were out of alignment right
like you were experiencing cognitive dissonance or
you know some
some space there and then
once you managed to close it by going inside
instead of looking outside right
that's when you found like you had greater sovereignty
if you will like you were just like
you know your voice might have even been stronger
but you know you
you felt like this is it like
I know kind of who I am I've done the vetting
I pulled out the ugly stuff and I looked at it and it was ugly
and now this is who I am and where I feel most compelled
but it also to me
seems that you couldn't have gotten where you are
unless you went where you went
yes
you know
the story
I was very lost in my twenties
searching for what to do and
and where to be
and then I spent my 30s being angry at my 20s for wasting time
interesting
and then I got to my 40s and I realized oh
my 20s were the stepping stone for who I am today
and so yes
even this this path of dealing with macro level issues
you know domestic or international conflicts
brought me to understand that what I wanna be dealing with
are really the issues between individuals
and within communities as opposed to larger scale things
that my personal impact is gonna be limited
and I see the impact that I have on the people around me
and it's very satisfying and it's very fulfilling
and it's
it's a feeling that I did not have
when I was trying to focus on these really pressing conflict
or domestic issues in United States
for me personally
what I'm doing now my current community is what fulfills me
you know you and I are of the same ilk
and that it's my life has also LED me to the conclusion that well
you can talk about the broader issues
it's bringing the the healing to the individual
that actually has the greatest impact on the broader issues
and so
with emotional intelligence is trying to give people those skills
right on how to manage your own
do your own self evaluation
your own self assessment and
and learn how to you know
mitigate the issues that you have
or embrace kind of where you wanna go
because then when you find yourself in a broader conversation
because you're you know
in alignment or whatever word you wanna choose
you don't get triggered so easily right
you know it's kind of like you've
you've shorted up your own vulnerabilities
if you will because you've looked at them
I'm just curious to get your take on the
so having said all of that about doing your own work
let's talk about the broader world for a moment
OK
as you're seeing and we'll stay within the United States
just because that's
different you know
things playing out in a public forum
what is your lens that you're looking through
and how are you reading the situation
I'm coming to this from a perspective that
the anger that people feel is based on fear
and having to understand that fear is really important
and understanding that even people that I disagree with feel fear
even though they might not be aware of it
and that is a leading component of
of our behavior um
I know for me that's true
when I get angry at someone
it's because
and that creates fear of not meeting that need
and so that it doesn't mean that I don't get pissed off
when I watch certain things in the news
or that I don't get angry or annoyed
and yet I have now
I think because I have a better understanding of myself
and I should note
that I'm on a lifelong journey of figuring out who I am
and I will never reach the destination
and that's completely fine
and yet this journey that I'm currently on
is allowing me to understand other people's journey
even though they might not be aware of the journey that they're on
right
so in many ways
it can allow me to feel more compassion and kindness to people
that my
and I still struggle with that
you know I
I joke that I have a PhD in holding grudges
I'm very good at it
I have decades of experience
and
whether it's on a macro domestic national issues or
but especially personal stuff
well I mean
if you said earlier in our conversation
you spent your 30s being mad at yourself for what you did in your 20s
I mean that's a long grudge to hold against yourself
yes yes
so it was
it was like you know
if you just extrapolate that out a couple iterations
you can hold a grudge we'll
we'll get it
yes so
as you recognize that the trigger
people often are feeling is associated with some fearful narrative
that has been rightly or wrongly
internally constructed
that's telling them and to your point
they might not even realize that they're being fearful
that it is a place of fear
how in your experience
do you help people unpack that in a way that it
becomes a salve for them a balm for them as they're
you know trying to move through that space
I think first of all it's offering a space
when I say a space a physical place where they can come to okay
and share and listen to others realizing oh
I'm not the only one
I think for majority of my life
I thought I was the only one experiencing and feeling certain things
and once I realized oh no
there are plenty of other people going through these emotions
and experiences
and in many ways not being unique helps me feel like I belong
in that sense
and so what I do in my classes and what I do in my consultancy
is that I arrange spaces for people to
come sit around in a circle where there's nothing in between them
just sitting on their chairs
the fact that you don't have a physical barrier
kind of helps to connect with others
to see everybody's eyes
and there might be prompts
there might be questions there might be activities that we do
and I always am the first to
answer those questions and so it's important that I model what
I'm hoping they would do
whether it's showing vulnerability or opening up
or sharing a part of themselves
and so
creates a bond between people
a sense of belonging a sense of closeness
and a sense that I'm not alone
I think for me personally
part of the roots of my fear in the past has been I am alone
there's nobody else who's going through this
and me not feeling connected to others
increased my ability to be in conflict with other people
because it was a defense mechanism for me to actually be louder
or to be more aggressive
because I wasn't able to understand or even see that I was afraid
and so by
allowing people to shine a light on those within a group setting
can be very healing
that there's so much there to unpack
on one hand I'm thinking
there's a loneliness epidemic in the United States
we're also seeing a lot of conflict within the United States
does one equal the other
there definitely are going to be things that are feeding into that
right if you look at some
folks in the counseling community
and their research
they'll tell you that socially belonging is a human need
whether it's Maslow or some of the other ones
even if you can't get into a physical community
it seems like people are finding a community
some of the communities are not healthy
right but they're still searching for that connective piece
is what I hear you saying
so that they're finding well
other people other people are having these thoughts
sometimes those thoughts aren't very good
but you know
other people are so
so the question is
if you can't you know
you have a physical space
you have
how many folks do you have
usually 18
so you have 18 people who are serving almost as a mirror
are they serving as a mirror
yes sometimes
I think to each person is very different
it can be a mirror and it can be someone to lean on
but you're in a safe space
it's been made safe by you who's made yourself vulnerable
in my mind I'm trying to figure out
how can we help each other if we don't have that physical space
if we see somebody who you know
the first step is to care about someone right
so maybe it's a parent or a friend or
you know
how do we create a space for them to have these gestalt or aha
moments around their own vulnerability
so that it seems like it do you need to name it to heal it
well first of all
I wanna go back to something you said
about having to be connected to somebody else
I think the first step is to connect to ourselves
and I think for that makes sense
for the majority of my life
I was not connected with shai
I was yeah
you know it's funny
when I first started teaching negotiation and practicing mediation
I was trying to help other people
but I was not helping myself right
and so I it's very important that I first focus on helping myself
before I actually trying to help other people
alright I wanna stop you right there because I think a lot of us
me included are not
are not as much as we should be
so can you give some some ways to connect with yourself
yes so
you know I
I've spent years in therapy
I'm not in therapy right now
but I've done I've done that
I'm a huge fan of therapy
especially if you have the right person
for me personally it's
it's these weekly meetings I have with my men's group okay
where any issue that has
that comes up for me during the week
whether it's at work family or elsewhere
I can bring in there and I can vent about it
and then have people
help me understand where that anger and fear comes from
and process that so when I go back out into the world
I'm not bringing all that baggage with me
in my interactions with other people
and if I don't have that space to do that
I will actually cause more harm to other people cause
you know hurt people hurt people
so in addition to doing that
you know I
I meditate and I exercise and I
I try to eat healthy and I try to take care of myself
and it's mostly but most importantly I
am connecting with people
that can provide me a space to not only be myself
but also to grow as a person and if I don't have that
I'll be unable to help other people
and I think that that is part of my frustration when I look at various
whether it's academic programs or professional programs
where the focus is okay
let's help other people right
and we don't actually spend any time helping ourselves first
and that is I think
is the biggest error when it comes to
to feels that that try to help others
but to go back to the question about
you know okay
you don't have this specific physical space you can come to
what do you do then
so a year ago
I developed and started a new course at UNC called
The Practice of connecting with strangers
and I started that because
I really dislike connecting with strangers on the street
I and I realized that if I want to learn something
I probably have to teach it
so
I spent I don't know 6
8 months developing this course talking to people reading
putting things together
and the course is basically focused on developing
the confidence and the tools to engage with anyone
and so you know
we start in the classroom by learning how to listen to one another
how to connect on a one on one basis
and then students are sent out into the
world for the duration of the two hour class that we have
free range yes exactly
and so you know it starts slow it starts with okay
here's a list of people that I want you to observe you know
somebody with a beard or somebody who's has amazing hair or
you know
a piece of clothing that you clothing that you find really nice
whatever it is and so because the
the most important thing that we don't do is we don't observe people
we
we don't look at the minute details about them
because those usually can be subjects of communication that are and
and conversations that we can have with them
the following session okay
now they have a scavenger hunt and they have a list of
of people that they have to go and interact with
and it's basically pushing
students out of their comfort zone to engage
usually with people that they would otherwise not engage with
whether it's a business owner in Chapel Hill
an unhoused person
an older person a younger person whatever it is you know
the following session we do an act of kindness okay
here's a list of possible things you can do
to support somebody else that you don't know
and so they go out and do and so again
it's just building that confidence
and I think because especially with a younger generation
you know I'm assuming you and I were
I used to spend my time with my friends on the street
just being you know
being a child but not being
there was no internet there was no computer
yeah and so
if you wanted to see anyone
you had to like call make a plan like
and you didn't think twice about it
right
and I yet gotta see with my younger students
you know
social media is really the main way people connect with one another
and so the idea of connecting with another person
face to face without electronics is scary
and yet over a period of time
they build the skills that maybe you and I take for granted
right
and then we we
you know provide
one of the activities we do is
we provide free listening to the community
so the students would draft or design signs
you know whether it's free listening
come yap here come vent
whatever it is they want to put on
and then we either go on campus or
in downtown Chapel Hill and they hold signs and
in groups of two three or four
people will stop by asking what the hell is going on here
yeah that's usually an opening than to actually talk to them
or people would come and stop
and talk about things that are bothering them
or something that they want to get off their chest
because sometimes
it's easier to open up to a stranger that you'll never see again
because they don't have any baggage with you right
so again that provides the ability for students
and also for members of the community
to engage with someone they don't know
for a period of whether it's a few seconds or half an hour
whatever it is
and as part of the course also
we have
teamed up with the town of Chapel Hill
they have a crisis unit that
and and also part of their police services
where they actually engage with members of the community
whether it's the businesses or the unhoused community
and so students also get to interact
with communities that they otherwise would not
you know many of my students are seniors
so last year of their their program
and they say this is the first time I've seen a side of Chapel Hill
I've never seen before because I only interact with other students
right and whenever I see
you know an a
an unhouse person I just walk by
but now part of it
they actually have to engage and actually see this person as a human
and so to bring it back to your question
that is one way to actually start connecting with people
even if you don't have the physical space
that somebody like me creates
I love that I love that on so many different levels
and I'm trying to remember the name of what
there's a technique that you're using in counseling
but basically
it's where you continually put yourself into spaces
where you're uncomfortable
and when you successfully navigate them
that's what builds true courage
like real courage right yeah
as an aside Lincoln did that when he
he used to
so he would go to parties and he would just start talking
and he was terrible like really bad
but yet he became this incredible orator
and it's like
connecting with people is so fundamental to our emotional health
our mental health the whole thing
and to your point if you're just doing it through the computer
through a video game or an online chat room or whatever
you're really not developing those nuanced skills that you would get
if you were to sit in a group with 18 people
with no barriers in between you
and have to read people's body language and
and things like that right
and I use a I use a diagram in my class
which I didn't come up with
I saw it I think somewhere else
and it has 3 circles the circle inside is comfort zone
the outside the middle circle is learning zone
and the outer circle is panic zone
and what I tell my students
you know I'm
the fact that you're taking this course already
means you wanna step outside your comfort zone
and so my hope is that you're gonna step into your learning zone
and learning zone for me basically
means the place where I can grow
I stretch my boundaries
where I'm learning
and then panic zone is where I feel unsafe yeah
I feel fear and so I tell my students only
you know where the line between learning zone and panic zone is
and it's up to you to decide when it's time not to cross that
and you know
and so yes
the idea of
of engaging with people they don't know on the street yeah
for some it's a learning zone
for some it's a panic zone
and so they have to decide where
where that line is but I think that
that's true for any behavior that you're getting used to
or you're wanting to engage in
I mean I think about
I'll give you an example when I first was graduated in my 20s
like you I was
I knew what I wanted to do
but I didn't have the skill set to do it
which was to get a job right
I knew I wanted to work in a field
the environmental field
but I had no skills whatsoever
and then after you get beat down for a bit
or you're afraid to pick up the phone or you're afraid to do whatever
you have to move through those concentric circles right
and now it's like oh
you know give me the phone like
but that would have been panic zone
I think I think that model fits
for a lot of different things
kind of any advice you want to give
or any practical tips that you want to leave our audience with
you know help yourself before you help others
I think that that's for me
the most important thing that I've Learned about myself
both personally and professionally
I used to view the idea of vulnerability as weakness
because it was used against me as a child
and so I would say until my mid 40s
I was not able to be vulnerable with other people with myself
I would make jokes
or make fun of things to ease the tension that I was feeling
and now I view vulnerability as power
allows me to be my authentic self with other people
yeah
and if somebody else chooses to use that against me
that says more about them than about me
and so
and those watching this and listening to this
to
put themselves in situations in which they can grow
in a vulnerable way
and I think that would make it would make my society much better
yeah so yeah
I love that and I'm gonna piggyback on that just a little bit
the when you make yourself vulnerable
you have to have addressed what we in counseling
call the shadow side of yourself that
that fearful side
and one of the ways to do that is called reflective listening
so when you listen to somebody and you reflect back what they say
it shows that person that you're paying attention to them
if you do that internally and you say you know
I don't like people who think the moon is blue
well you know
what does that say about you
why does that the case and sit with it for a minute
what is that really about
and you will go into
at least from my experience
there are parts of yourself that you may not like so much
or want to embrace or a part of you gets revealed that you're like
I didn't know that part existed
but it clearly does not
having any judgment around yourself
or anybody else is the only way to make it through
the shadow side it's been my experience
it doesn't mean that you
but it's like okay
that was part of my growth
my 20s were part of my growth
that fight was part of my growth
but then it becomes a container
it doesn't become pervasive
it's like oh
that's who I was then this is who I am now
and I would say if there is judgment
figuring out where it comes from yeah
and the way to move through it is to understand the
what triggers that judgement
and that often comes from
an experience in childhood or early adulthood
and just figuring that out rather than pushing that away
yeah or a script that you've been fed
you know that yeah
so if people want to learn more about you or
you know learn about your consultancy or things
how do they get in touch with you
Tamari Conflict Management is
is my consultancy
there's a website uh
it's Tamaricm.com
my email is [email protected] and people can reach me there
thank you so much for your time
thank you I appreciate it
move past it is to move through it
me personally
excuse everything
I would want
have a fear of public speaking
my community and people that I care for
because me being vulnerable
in your group how would you say you have
of the work of some of the
six eight
left in 97
lived in England
role plays in my classes
I was not really happy
how I grew up
I tell my younger students is I used to
weeks or months
this is done over a period of time
our focus right now
but as you see
it's triggering an unmet need
instinct would not be to provide that for them
I am working really hard
to override
that instinct
